Questions & Answers

Question—

April 2008, Oregon— . . . . . . . . . . . What do you do when you are trying to get movement from a group of cows and the bull is the kind that is stopping the movement. In fact he will literally stand in the gate and pitch the cows back in the pasture. I would like to shoot him and drop him right their. What would Bud do?

Answer—

Years ago Bud and I had problems with bulls "herding " the cows and stopping them from going where you want them to go. When we learned how to get good-movement in the cows the bulls weren't able to stop them so they stopped trying. Even the elk bulls finally gave up, and they are by far worse than any beef bull. Here are a couple of things that tend to stop or slow movement in livestock.

#1. is to travel in the direction of the flow of the animals. This is true if you are along side of the herd or if you are in back of the herd. You should always zigzag back and forth behind the herd, never move straight ahead.

#2. When you are going back and forth you must watch the animals, since if you are going to the right you tend to turn the herd to the left. When you are going to the left, you tend to turn the herd to the right. JUST AS SOON as you notice an indication that they are turning you must turn back to straighten them out.

A bull can't stop good movement in cows that are going straight and going where they want to go. You should have the cows working for you and in the right frame of mind before you get to the gate. If not, you should drive them away and work with them until they are working for you.

Bulls don't like to walk as fast as cows are willing to walk. If you have been driving the cattle for a long ways, you might have been pushing the cows faster than the bull is comfortable traveling. This will often cause them to try to stop the cows.

Question—

December 2006 Oklahoma—I've been reading your site and come up with a question or two. I trial my dogs as well as use them in the pasture, trialing them is not a problem at all but when I get in the pasture and have to count on them they just won't stick to it. I try to encourage them all I can (praise, hoot and holler, yip, etc.), but they just won't do their jobs. Can you give me any advice? I work them a lot in a trial course, and they do great on 3 to 5 head in a lot or in a pasture course if that makes any sense, but it's working the herds of cows that my problem really shows with 2 or 3 dogs on 30 to 50 head of half broke cows. My dogs have a huge presence and all of them have a great mouth. They go to the head or heels, but when I send them to the cows they go then say ,"see ya," and turn around and come back. if you have any advice please e-mail me.

Answer—

Some dogs will work well at trialing and in the pasture, most will not.

If it is important to you to have a good pasture dog, one that will work out of your sight, one that can control the animals without you controlling the dog, that dog must be allowed to learn how to get the job done alone - not be told how to get it done.

I like to start a young dog out in the pasture, not in a small pen.  Let the dog learn to work.  Not run wild, but let it work.  If we use too much control, some dogs just quit.  Even if you want to trial, the dog should learn the pasture first.  After a dog learns to work and get a job done right, it is easy to put commands on it for a trial.

Too much control will hurt a pasture dog.  With the dogs that you have, send them then shut-up.  Just move around and let them see that they can work without commands.  Move around, even if you have to be in the center of the herd.  Any place until the dogs realize you will let them do something.  The less you say, the better.  Saying nothing is best.

Remarks June, 2007 —

. . . . I e-mailed you a while back and I had a question about getting my trial dogs to work in the pasture. Well I really appreciate the advice. My dogs are working great in the pasture. I send ‘em and shut up and hey it works. At first it was a little unnerving they were a little uneasy but they have come a long way. I think the hardest thing was to shut my mouth but I have no arguments IT WORKED. I recently took them and lotted 380 head without a hitch. I send ‘em and sit in the truck and shut up and here they come pushing ‘em right along no problem. I can't put in words how great it has gotten mainly cause my jaw is still stuck to the ground. I've also realized that the trialing has gotten better. You really made me sit and think when you said shut up and I've come to a conclusion that I'm over handling my dogs. The problem wasn't my dogs it was me and I realize that now. THANK YOU. 

Question—

July 21, 2006—I have a question for you about my dog. He is one now and has a desire to work. I want to start working more with him and have some already. My problem is getting him to listen when he is around cattle. He listens to me pretty well when he is not around stock. I take him with me to check cows and he sticks with me for a while. Then he takes off after a cow when I don't want or need him to and I can't get him off for anything. I am very firm with him when he gets in trouble but he definitely knows when I can't get to him. I thought about an electronic collar. I don't know. Any ideas?

Answer—

July 22, 2006—I used to love to get that kind of pup. He is telling you that he really wants to work. I like to take our pups with us when we feed and check cattle, but as soon as they want to work we don't take them unless we are going to let them work. If you have a dog of that age that is willing to stay with you and is easy to call off, it probably isn't going to make the kind of cowdog that I would want.

Have you read the information that we have about working a pup on our web site? If so, you should realize that we don't expect our pups to "listen" in the early stages. They should cue off of our position to learn to work stock, but commands come later on.

A few years ago we had a phone call from a friend that we hadn't seen or heard from in several years. He said he was out fixing fence and let one of his pups go along for the exercise. He wasn't paying attention and the first thing he knew the pup had taken off after some cattle. He said "B-B" (before Bud) he would have chased after the pup and scolded him, but remembering the talks he had with me he walked out, positioned himself so the pup was in the right place and encouraged him to work properly. He kept the pup working for a half hour or so, then called him in and told him how wonderful he was. Then he snapped a leash on him and tied him to the fence until he was finished with the fencing job. When he got back to the house he said he just had to call us and tell us about it. He said instead of being frustrated and angry at the pup, he and the pup both had a wonderful day.

It can be pretty tough when the dog has learned that he doesn't have to mind when he knows that you aren't in position to be able to control him. I have never used an electronic collar but I don't have anything against them. Personally, I would let the pup have a lot of cow-work before I started cracking down on being able to easily call him off of cattle. At this stage, I wouldn't take him to the cattle without a rope on him unless I was going to let him work. Talk about teasing!

Remarks: July 25, 2006

I worked him last night in a smaller set of pens with some of our roping cattle. He did a good job and we both had a good time. I appreciate the advice. I just need to keep giving him a chance to work and progress.

Question—

February 16, 2006 . . . What do you have on Halter Breaking of Cattle?

Answer—

We don't "have" anything on halter breaking cattle, but this is how we do it.

First and foremost, DO NOT tie the animal to anything solid until you have it leading well. All this teaches him is that he can't move, and it makes it very difficult to actually teach it to lead.

Put the animal in a small pen, 20 feet x 20 feet or 30 feet x 30 feet is a good size.

Have a halter and lead rope on your animal. The lead rope should be long enough that by standing in the center of the pen, you can hold on to it with no pressure on the halter from any place the animal might go.

You will be in the middle of the pen. If the animal is spooky, just let him move around you until he settles down. Don't hold any pressure on the rope at all. When he settles down a little, just pull (never jerk) his head towards you, then give him slack. By pulling from the side you can "un-track" (make him take a step towards you to keep his balance) an awfully large animal.

Never pull from directly in front, as you will only teach him that you aren't strong enough to move him.

Never pull from behind as you will teach him that you aren't strong enough to stop him.

Always give slack when he takes a step. Do not pull unless you are at the side and KNOW that you can make him take a step. Walk back and forth and all around, making him take a step towards you every time you are in the correct position to do so.

Even after the animal is well halter broke, always start leading him by pulling to the side to get him to take his first step.

Question—

November 9, 2005 . . . . Can you tell me about dog breaking cattle? I'm a little curious about your approach, how you start, what you're looking for, etc. I've been working with some cows that I was told are "dog broke," and they seem to know what to do around a dog, but they will occasionally really go out of their way to get after the dog.

Answer—

As far as "dog breaking cows," we suggest that you first introduce the cows to a dog when the cows are dry. If you are knowledgeable and have good dogs you can work cows and calves that have not been worked with a dog before, but most people feel that a dog causes more trouble than they solve in a case like this.

What you want to accomplish is to teach the cows that they must respect the dog but not be afraid of it. You want a dog to use as much force as is necessary to turn the cow back, but then he should be willing to let her go back to the bunch without harassing her. Don't call the dog off or lay it down to accomplish this, just "push" the dog over to work something else (read the Stockdogs information on this web site). Don't make your dog back-off or lie down when a cow wants to fight it. This teaches the cow that she doesn't have to respect the dog. Some people want a dog to "punish" the cows. In this situation, the cow feels that the dog is a threat to her, so naturally, she feels the dog is a threat to her calf and is often the very worst kind of "dog-fighter." You certainly can't fault her for this.

Remember that all of the animals you work with are learning and changing all of the time—just let a novice ride your good cow-horse for a month or so and see what happens. Just because a group of cows are "dog-broke" doesn't mean they will do exactly what any dog wants them to do. They know if the dog has the power so they will respect it. I think a better word than power is "presence." Our better cow-dogs seldom had to bite, but the cattle still respected them.

Here is an example of a dog with "presence." When we were in Canada, we always had a straw bed for the cattle. Picture 600-800 yearlings cuddled up in the straw, temperatures at minus 30 or so. It was a tough job for a couple of people to get them up and going early in the morning. You had to almost personally get each animal up. Normally it took at least two dogs to get them moving, and they really had to work at it. Tuffy, the Kelpie that we brought back with us from Australia, could easily get them up and moving by himself with no trouble at all. When the cattle saw him coming, they would start standing up. Cattle know if a dog is weak, and they take great joy in chasing it. They also know that some dogs are not to be trusted so they are afraid to turn their back on it to go back to the bunch or to leave their calf unprotected.

Question—

October 25, 2005 . . . . I live in Australia and have been cell grazing for the past 18 months. . . . . My immediate problem is that I run between 600 - 800 head of cattle on a four thousand two hundred acre property. In one cell I have dry cows, steers, weaners, heifers and for the last 18mths have had no trouble. I have quiet moves, no running, the cattle follow me quietly to the next paddock then go off and graze. I am able to walk through the mob while they graze checking if any individual animal needs attention. Just recently, as soon as they hear my bike they run from out of the hills. It’s like disturbing a rat’s nest. After four years of drought, this is the best season we have had for a long time, there is more feed now than we have had since beginning cell grazing, they are only on short graze periods because of the rapid growth rate of pasture, and I know the problem is me, but cannot understand or pinpoint what I am doing differently to cause this problem after so long with no problems. They are now stressed and I am stressed watching this happen. Could you please give me a hint at what I am doing wrong so the problem might be solved as to alleviate the stress on my stock and myself? I would be most grateful for any assistance and I am looking forward to your reply.

Answer—

The animals have learned that when they hear your bike, they go to fresh feed. For a while, they moved because you moved them. Now they are moving because they are going to fresh feed. In order to stop this you will need to work with the animals until they only move because you want them to. When they come to the gate, don't let them into the new paddock until they are quiet. This might take a while. Quietly move them away from the gate then let them come back. If they come back slowly let them through the gate - otherwise drive them away again. Do this slowly and don't worry about how far they go. Just get their mind off of going to new feed. You can also open the gate and go into the new paddock ahead of them, just slowing them down. This will take a few times until they walk through the gate.

When starting cell grazing, be sure you don't let the animals get to moving because of new feed. Have them move only because you move them.

If you move at the same time every day, or if you call and they come, then each day they will come easier until they start coming too fast.

It will take several days to stop this. It took many days to start it.

Be patient and good luck.

Following Day (response from the author of the original question)—

. . . . I moved the cattle yesterday, working them back from the gate several times taking over an hour for them to settle completely, in the end they walked through the gate and put their heads down to graze, not walking around and running as they have been. I will now practice this method each time, and I'm am sure the results will improve.

Many thanks!

16 days later (response from the author of the original question)—

I was so excited I just had to share this with you, since I first contacted you about my problems with my cattle running to my bike and vehicles that even went within ear shot of them. I can't believe the difference. (that was the 26th October.) I took the photos today (11th November) when I moved them, you will notice that they are standing back from the gate when they started to come, most kept grazing in the background, and I had to gather up the last hundred or so. I was beginning to think that they would never slow down but it's happening. IT'S HAPPENING!

Many thanks for helping me with the cattle and easing the stress for my cattle, myself and now maybe I won't drive my husband crazy anymore, he was very upset when my cattle used to chase him up the laneways bellowing at him. . . .

Four Months later (response from the author of the original question)—

Please tell Bud that I do so much appreciate what he told me to do on the email, my stock are now a joy to handle, and I find that on the occasion that they do get a little anxious, I just spend some time with them, work them back from the gate, for 15 or 30 minutes if neccessary, go away, come back in a few hours and they walk to the gate every time. I think that I am not stressed because there is now an answer to the problem!

More explanation—

The above correspondence is only one of many we have received. Since this seems to be an escalating problem, I thought it might be worthwhile to post this on our web site.

In 1958 Bud saw a grass seed advertisement showing how a dairy, using their grass mixture, and changing pastures twice a day was able to significantly increase production. Understanding the advantage of rotating the pastures, Bud said “I can do that!” Of course, we were working on big ranches in Northern California at the time. There were very few fences except for a few small holding pastures, but that didn’t keep us from bunching the stock up and moving them around the ranges to attempt to get the benefit of intensive grazing without building any fences. In those days cowboys were hired to scatter cattle. If the boss had known what we were doing we would probably have lost our job. We proved to ourselves and later, to the ranchers we worked for that bunching the stock and moving them to fresh feed was good for the grass and for the animals.

In the 1970’s, when intensive grazing was starting to be written up in the magazines, we were surprised to read that “. . . total production per acre will increase, but that individual production will be less.” Our experience has always been that individual production will also go up. After seeing a few operations using grazing cells and watching how the cattle acted we could see why individual performance would suffer. Not only were cattle standing at the gate, anticipating the move instead of being out grazing, but they were rushing the gate and leaving calves behind when the gate was opened. In areas with small, highly productive pastures this didn’t cause too much trouble. In some of the operations we have worked with, where cattle numbers are 800-1000 head and paddock sizes near 1000 acres it caused a great deal of trouble. Cows would forget about their calves and often they would never get back together. One place in Texas had over 25 calves at headquarters that they had picked up. Even if the cows and calves would eventually find each other, the coyotes in that country soon learned that the sound of the whistle (or horn) was the “breakfast bell” since the cows would all come running and leave their calves behind, unprotected.

Since putting on Stockmanship Schools we have met a lot of people who have asked us to help them with this problem. One of the major concerns we hear about is that the cattle don’t graze properly because they are waiting at the gate or rushing to the gate when they hear you coming. Also, the cattle rush through and leave calves during paddock shifts. Most people don’t recognize the problem until the cattle have developed some pretty bad habits. Can you imagine when Allan Savory and Stan Parsons were first trying to interest ranchers in pasture rotation? These are ranches that were gathered twice a year. It would take a large crew several days to get the cattle in. . . . . and they are trying to convince them to move their stock every few days? It was necessary for them to come up with a system which would cause “the cattle to move themselves” in order to get people to give it a try.

As I said before, we know that rotationally grazing pastures is best for the grass and best for the cattle, but we also know that in order to get the utmost benefits you must teach your cattle to be driven, and you must gather and drive them when you make paddock shifts, not let the knowledge of going to new feed be the primary thought in your cattle’s mind.

When we were in Canada, the outfit that owned the feedlot where we worked also had a cow herd that they intensively grazed during the summer. The pastures were laid out from the water lot in such a way that the first day they had the area closest to the water. The next day the wire was moved up to give them another piece of fresh grass and the third day the wire was removed and they had the entire three sections. Then they were moved to another strip.

For a while, when they made the 2nd day change, they would just pull the posts, unhook the wire and drag it to the new spot. The cows and calves would quietly follow the wire up to the new grass. Soon however, the cows came running when they heard the pick-up. As soon as they unhooked the electricity the cows would run over the wire, tangling up in it and making a general mess. They finally had to drive the cattle to the water-lot and shut them in so they could change the wire. When they opened the gate to let them out of the water-lot it was a general stampede.

By this time, the owners decided that something should be done about it so they asked Bud to show them how to correct this problem. Bud went with them when they changed the wire for 2-days in a row. He showed them how to properly gather the cattle so they had their calves with them when they went into the water-lot. When they were ready to let the cattle out, he quietly worked them away from the gate until they had (somewhat) settled down. When he opened the gate he went out ahead of them. They still rushed to the feed and soon got past him, but they were better on the second day.

I decided to take the camera on the 3rd day and get some video of these “crazy” cows. I was a day late! We show this video in our schools to illustrate the proper way to start and drive cows and calves. It shows cows and calves grazing all over the pasture, not paying any attention at all when we drove up. Bud & Phil gathered the cattle correctly into the water-lot, changed the wire, opened the gate and the cattle just stood there. Bud wanted to show Phil some other things while he was there so, leaving the gate open, they walked around through the cattle. After 10 or 15 minutes, since none of the cows had moved, they drove the cattle out of the water-lot. The cows walked slowly to the new feed with their calves at their side. After this, they went back to moving the wire without moving the cows. If, when they drove up the cows acted at all anxious, they would take a few minutes to “properly” drive the cows away until they settled down and then change the wire.

Question from Australia—

I've been starting pups for so long using a lot of control that I'm having trouble starting pups using your methods. The main problem I have is not teaching them to come to me first. I am currently starting 2 pups, a lively Kelpie who is 10 months old and a quiet Kelpie cross Border Collie who is 8 months old. They are both working the sheep well and learning to hold them on me OK but I have trouble calling them off especially the Kelpie pup. I've tried waiting until he "asks" to come in but he hasn't asked yet and we've had some pretty long afternoons. It has often resulted in me tackling him when he's unsuspecting but I don't think that's the right thing to do either. He's a great pup, going to suit this country well as he is so tough and won't give up or tire. Would it do any harm to let him work with a rope dragging so I can bring him in with less fuss?

Answer—

Please don't misunderstand what I say. I want my dogs to mind and they are taught to come. It is just that the first time they go with me to work - I want nothing to keep them from working with THEIR style, not a way I have forced on them with my control. If you have a strong-willed pup it doesn't hurt to let him work dragging a rope, or to teach him to come before you take him to stock. A more timid pup should work a time or two before you put too much control on him.

Bud & Eunice Williams
PO Box 1497
Bowie, TX  76230-1497
940/872-4800 ~ Phone
Eunice@stockmanship.com

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