Bud & Eunice Williams Talking about Dogs
You have a good dog
It seems like the subject of stock-dogs always comes up at some time during the schools and seminars we conduct around the country. People are proud of their dogs and like to tell about the wonderful things they can do. But sometimes, during these discussions someone will say "My dog doesn’t know how to do any of the things you are talking about, but he is still a big help to me."
Sometimes we get so hung-up with perfection that we forget that man and dog are individuals and not everyone is interested or capable of being that perfect dog, or perfect handler. It’s great if your dog will stop stock and bring them back to you, but even if it will only stop them and hold them until you get there it is a big help. Maybe he just wants to stay with you but he will help you drive the stock and you enjoy his company. No matter what your neighbor says, if you think you have a good dog, then YOU HAVE A GOOD DOG.
Working a dog should be pleasant for you and your dog. Know what your dog is capable of doing. Don’t ask him to do things that he can’t do. No matter how you try to hide it, he will know you are disappointed and both you and he will be unhappy.
Trial Dog/Ranch Dog
(Published in August/September 1994 Ranch Dog Trainer)
"Ranch Dog Trainer . . .Dedicated to farmers and ranchers who use the working stockdog as a livestock handling tool."
I hate to see so much emphasis being put on trying to prove that trial dogs are better than ranch dogs, or that ranch dogs would be better if we had more control on them.
There is a huge difference between a good trial dog and a good ranch dog. There is practically no way to compare them. We have trials as a means of comparing one trial dog to another. The course for each dog is the same. The judge is the same. The numbers of animals are the same. A trainer has months or even years to teach and prepare a dog to go through this course.
A working ranch dog will have a different course every day and may have many different numbers or even kinds of animals to work.
The trial dog has a certain time to complete the course. After that time has elapsed, the dog is finished. The worst that can happen is the dog doesn’t win.
The working ranch dog must work until the job is done even if it takes all day.
If the trial dog gets confused or quits half way through he just loses the trial and can go to another one later. He can win this next trial and get written up in a magazine about how good he is.
If the ranch dog gets confused or quits you part way through the job, you could have animals scattered and spend days getting them back together again. A good working ranch dog must work all day when asked. He must work large and small groups and under all conditions. Just having more control on the dog won’t help him to do this.
Over the years the trial course has been designed for spectator appeal and to test the ability of the handler to manipulate the dog through the course. Most of the time the trial is won more by the handler’s ability than the actual working ability of the dog.
I don’t mean to take anything away from trial dogs. They are just trained to do things that most working ranchers don’t need, or sometimes even want. It is very entertaining to watch trial dogs work. Also, the people working them enjoy their dogs, good or bad. But the working rancher has a job to do. And while he likes his dogs, they are not just for entertainment.
When talking about working dogs, there is something that we should be aware of. More commercial animals in the U.S. whether they are cattle, sheep, goats or pigs are gathered and worked without dogs than with the help of dogs. While dogs can be a lot of help, most ranchers prefer to not have a dog around and they are able to do all the jobs without dogs. Most working ranchers who use dogs need them for jobs that are difficult for the rancher to do. Because of this, most of the things a trial dog is taught to do is of little or no value to a working rancher.
A trial dog must go wide on the outrun, must not cut in too soon, must never cross over and so on. Now this really looks good and may take a long time to train the dog to do this. If the dog has a wide fast outrun he or she will please the judge, the handler and the crowd.
If a working rancher is in rough mountain country and has a herd of animals going the wrong way at a run, it doesn’t matter to him if the dog goes wide, crosses over or goes right up the middle as long as the dog stops all the animals and maybe brings them back. But at least stops them all and holds them until he can get there. No judge or crowd will see this. It might not be so pretty to watch, but I can tell you, the rancher will be pleased.
Next the lift. A trial dog goes to 12 o’clock then brings the animals in a straight line to the handler. When a ranch dog goes to get animals it really doesn’t matter what time they work at or if the animals are brought in a straight line. It only matters that all of the animals are gathered up and brought back in a reasonable length of time.
When we get to the panels the trial dog must take the animals between the panels that are placed out in the arena. This requires skill by the dog and handler. Also it is a way of judging one dog against another. If the dog succeeds the crowd and handler are pleased and the dog scores points. I have worked with dogs on ranches for over 50 years. I have seen many good ranch dogs work and not once have I ever seen a ranch dog have to drive stock between two panels out in a field in order to get a job done.
I could go on and on but by now you should understand that a trial is a contest. It is for people to get together, try their skills and their dog’s skill against one another. This is a very good thing. It allows people to work with a dog working livestock that would otherwise not be possible. Most people will never have the opportunity to work a dog on a working ranch.
A ranch dog has a job to do. A good ranch dog learns how to work the animals, not how to take commands and to go through a set course.
Sometime ago I wrote about a problem someone here had with a dog in order to try and help someone else with a similar problem. The comment from one of your readers was "the dog was only half trained" because it didn’t know how to drive. I have never had a working dog that wouldn’t drive, but I very seldom ask them to. We work large groups of animals. If we use the dogs to drive a lot, the dog would not be consistent in going to the lead and staying there. When working large groups of animals in open country the most important thing a dog can do for us is to be willing to go stop the animals, no matter what the conditions. It is much easier to get a dog to drive, go right or left, go to the lead and so on in an arena than it is out in the mountains or in brushy country where you can’t see the dog. We have worked in some areas where the only thing the ranchers wanted their dogs to do was to stop animals that were going the wrong way. These dogs had very strong instincts to go to the lead and were never used for anything else, but they were doing a job that very few, if any, trained trial dog would do.
By encouraging the dog to think for himself instead of (as the wife of a trial dog handler put it) being an extension of the handler’s arm, I think you will be amazed at what a dog is capable of doing. One time we were helping to load some lambs on a truck. A panel came loose. One lamb jumped out and started up through a large field that had 800 sheep in it. As soon as the lamb hit the ground the ranch dog went to get it. The lamb ran up into the flock of sheep. The dog stayed with it gradually slowing it down, then brought it back. While the dog was doing this, the rancher was getting the gates ready to put the lamb back on the truck. The dog brought this one lamb back and put it on the truck. It didn’t bother any of the other sheep. This was done with no direction from the rancher.
I have seen many dogs do things like this day after day, but now it is considered that the only way to have a good dog is to tell it every move to make. If you want a good ranch dog, learn where to position yourself and let your dog learn how to work stock with as little control from you as possible.
Untrained Dogs of Yesteryear
(Submitted to The Ranch Dog Trainer in answer to "Letters" disagreeing with "Ranch Dog/Trial Dog." They didn’t publish it.)
It is interesting to me that if someone
writes about a working dog that is not trained with all the commands and
control of a trial dog, this dog will be ridiculed as half
trained, sic’um/get
back or as an untrained dog of yesteryear (I like this one). If
someone writes that there maybe some ranch work that a trial trained dog
may not do as well as an "untrained dog of yesteryear" (I
really do like this one), then the writer is put down.
Here are two stories about some "Untrained Dogs of Yesteryear." These stories are absolutely accurate.
In October of 1960, Eunice and I set out to bring in some cattle for a rancher in Northern California. His gather was short by 15 head. The ranch was about 30,000 acres of rough mountains, timber and brush. These cows were wild and would take off when they heard you coming, long before you could see them. All of these cows had horns and knew how to use them. It took a strong, agile dog to be able to handle them. He had to have a lot of cow-savy too, or you were liable to wind up with fifteen bunches of one, instead of one bunch of fifteen.
Top and Scotty were the two dogs we had that day. Top was a five year old McNab that had worked very little when I got him about five months before. Scotty was a Border Collie that was given to me by a breeder we used to buy a lot of pups from. They had sold him as a pup, but he was returned to them for various reasons. These dogs only knew "Get Ahead" and "Come." We rode about fifteen miles before coming across fresh cow tracks. I told the dogs to "GET AHEAD." They took off following the tracks. In about thirty minutes we heard the dogs bark. They were about two miles away across two big canyons. The only place cattle could cross was at the head of these canyons. We had to travel about three miles to get around to where the dogs had the cattle held up. They would bark once or twice every few minutes, which is how we were able to find them. It took us at least an hour to get to them. They had all fifteen head waiting for us.
When I called the dogs off, the cows took off on the run. We kept up as best we could, which wasn’t very good. Because of the brush we were lucky to be able to see a couple of hundred feet. When the trail forked we could tell by the tracks that the cattle had taken the wrong fork. We sent the dogs to bring them back. Eunice and I turned them down the right trail and again they took off at a dead run. This time Scotty went with them. When we finally caught up, Scotty had them held up at the next fork in the trail. When we got them going the right way, Scotty was off again. Every time we came to a fork in the trail, or an area that Scotty wasn’t sure which way they should go, we would find him holding the cattle until we could catch up. This continued until the cattle would travel at a pace we could keep up with. By the time we got them back to headquarters, they handled pretty nice and we didn’t have any trouble putting them in the corral.
Eunice and I used to make our living gathering cattle and sheep that other people couldn’t get in. After the dogs had to bring back stock that had taken the wrong trail three or four times, they figured out by themselves how to handle this problem. We never had a dog that wouldn’t do this. If you have never worked wild stock in rough country you might not understand how much help it is to have a dog that will stay with the herd and hold them up until you can get there.
Now the questions:
1. When I saw the fresh tracks and sent the dogs, how wide should their outrun have been, and what command should I have used? Keep in mind that just because the tracks we saw were heading east doesn’t mean that the cattle were still going in that direction. We have had cattle and sheep both take off when they hear us coming, then circle around and hide in a brush patch behind us. If you’re counting on a fence to help you, forget it, there ain’t any!
2. When the dogs stopped the cows, what command would you use to get them to bring the cattle straight to us, across these canyons that cows can’t cross?
3. If we give up on that, what command would be best to get the dogs to bark when they are two miles away, as this is the only way to find them unless you are really good at tracking?
4. If you are tracking, would you track the dogs who are making a wide outrun, or would you track the cows? I don’t want to answer for you, but maybe you should track the dogs. If you track the cows you might be just chasing them farther away.
5. What command would you use to cause the dogs to hold the cows if he doesn’t bark and you do have to track them? This might take a long time. If your dog comes back before you get to the cows, the cows might leave. Or is there a command to make the cattle wait for you?
6. When the cows took off and we couldn’t keep up with them, what command would you use to tell the dog to hold the cattle at the next fork in the trail, but don’t bring them back?
If you will please answer these questions, there are many ranchers that would be most grateful. Some ranchers I have talked to didn’t think the dogs on a wide outrun would even be able to find cattle that were out of sight and running, maybe a mile away. I convinced them that a trial dog could do anything ranch dogs do and do it better. It would be stupid to have the dog follow the tracks as this would only chase the cows further away. Anyone that knows anything about stock-dogs would know they have to go wide under any conditions.
7. Oops, another question. Should a dog never go up the middle? Even, if because of the terrain that is the only way he can get to the lead? Do we just let those cows get away?
I am so excited about maybe someday having a good ranch dog!
In May of 1975 Eunice and I were taking care of 3,000 head of yearling cattle that we had wintered on the Eden Valley Ranch in Northern California. This ranch covers 27,000 acres in the mountains. There was lots of brush, timber, logged over country and rugged canyons. Sunday evening the owner told me he would have nine trucks at the ranch on Tuesday morning to start hauling the cattle out. Monday morning, before daylight, I started out horseback with Beau, Nip and Tuck. All three were supposed to be Border Collies, but I suspect that Nip & Tuck had a McNab daddy. By 10:00 AM we had 900 head gathered and ready to go to the holding pasture eight miles away. The dogs and my horse were in good shape and could have finished out the day, but I hated to see Eunice have the whole day to herself so I told her to meet me at the top of the mountain with a fresh horse and dogs. She brought Blue, an Australian Cattle Dog, Spot, a Border Collie (Spot was a solid black dog that we thought would look better if he had a spot), and Mitzy. No one who ever saw her could guess what kind of dog she was. But they all agreed that she was as good as any cowdog that ever lived. Now, of course, I know she probably wasn’t very good. She only knew three commands. "GET AHEAD, COME and HEY" for when she was wrong. You see, in 15 years I had learned to use three commands instead of two. In the last 20 years I haven’t progressed any since three commands are still all I use. Now you can help me change that. . . .but on with the story. The elevation at the top of the mountain was 4,100 feet. The holding pasture was eight miles away at 1,300 feet. The road was fairly steep in places and quite crooked where it wound in and out of canyons. When we started down the road I wanted to be in front since sometimes the lead cattle will go faster than I want. I put Blue behind to bring the stock. His job was to keep them coming at a nice even pace. Not too fast, and not too slow. I sent Mitzy along the side to keep the stock on the road. I kept Spot with me in case of an unforeseen problem. The choice of which dog to work at which location wasn’t a problem since any of them could do any job. Once the dog understood what job he was responsible for, I never had to worry about him leaving it. Anyone who has driven 900 head of cattle on a road in the mountains knows there will be some distance between the front and the back of the herd. In eight miles I only caught a glimpse of the dog on the back end once or twice. I saw Mitzy a few more times since she was working along the side of the herd. We arrived at the holding pasture in good time and with all of the cattle.
Now the Questions:
1. If you were going to drive 900 head of cattle by yourself in the mountains, what command would you give the dog on the back. Would one command be enough since you wouldn’t see him again for eight miles?
2. Since the road curves in and out of canyons should the dog on the back bring the cattle straight across the canyon? These canyons are very rough and brushy. Would it be possible to cheat a little and let the dog bring them up the road and not straight to me or would this ruin our image?
3. I see the dog on the side once in a while. What commands should I be giving her?
If you would do it totally different, will you explain how?
To drive these 900 yearlings to the holding pasture I needed two "untrained dogs of yesteryear," The other dog was insurance. When I get this new dog with all the training and commands on him will one dog be able to do the job? Will I even need to go along?
Most top trial dogs do make excellent farm dogs, but there are still some ranch jobs that few of them can do very well. Even if it’s such a simple thing as barking if needed. As far as I’m concerned there will always be a place for "THE UNTRAINED DOGS OF YESTERYEAR."
Untrained Dogs of Yesteryear, 1994 Style
(Published in Feb/Mar Ranch Dog Trainer)
Eunice and I really like dogs. They have always been a very important part of our life. We like all kinds. Trial dogs are wonderful, but so are farm dogs, ranch dogs, herding dogs and livestock guard dogs. When people ridicule working dogs, I will stand up for them. They have done so much for us over the years.
When the top trial dogs are compared to what people think are the worst ranch dog, the ranch dog looks pretty bad. What if we compared the best ranch dogs to the worst trial dogs? Many people don’t realize what is the best ranch dog. In some areas, the best dog you can have is one that will stop cattle or sheep and bring them back, or hold them until you can get there. There are lots of good dogs that can’t do this in the rough country I am talking about.
People who believe that only trial-trained dogs are good stock-dogs constantly comment on my belief in "untrained" dogs. This is certainly not the case. As soon as I indicate where we are taking the stock my dogs are trained to take their "commands" from the livestock not from me. Let me take you through a typical September day here at Vee Tee Feeders. The cattle I am talking about weigh between 500 and 850 pounds. I am on foot with one or two dogs.
IN THE MORNING:
Pen #14. Pull 500 head of cattle out of the pen. Drive them ¼ mile, through a gate in the middle of the fence, across a road, through another gate in the middle of the fence and leave them in a 300 acre field.
Pen #30. Pull 700 head of cattle out of the pen. Drive them ¼ mile, through a gate. Down one mile of lane fenced with a single electric wire into a 200-acre field.
Pen #34. Pull 600 head of cattle out of the pen into a 40-acre field.
Pen #39. Pull 300 head of cattle out of the pen. Drive them ¼ mile, through a gate in the middle of the fence and leave them in a 40-acre brushy canyon.
Pen #48. Pull 600 head of cattle out of the pen. Drive them ½ mile across the field, through a gate in the middle of the fence into an 80-acre brushy canyon.
IN THE AFTERNOON:
Gather 500 head of cattle from a 300-acre field, through a gate in the middle of the fence, across a road, through another gate in the middle of the fence, ¼ mile across the field and into pen #14.
Gather 700 head of cattle from a 200-acre field, through a gate in the middle of the fence into a mile long lane fenced with a single strand of electric wire, ¼ mile across the field into pen #30.
Gather 600 head of cattle from a 40-acre field and put them in pen #34.
Gather 300 head of cattle from a 40-acre brushy canyon, through a gate, ¼ mile across the field into pen #39.
Gather 600 head of cattle from an 80-acre brushy canyon, through a gate, ½ mile across the field into pen #48.
This doesn’t take very long. I have a lot of other things I take care of through the day besides these cattle moves. When I open the gate to the pen, I go on ahead. The dogs must move the cattle out with no direction except the gate being opened and being sent from there. Some of the gates are not at the back of the pen. The dogs must bring the cattle out and curve them to come to the right direction. I am confident they will not bother the cattle in the adjoining pens. When I am ahead of 700 head of cattle, the dog or dogs are back there quite a distance. I must be in the lead to open the gates at the road, and to be in position to guide them across. I can control one side of the road, the dogs bring the cattle and watch the other side of the road.
For a couple of weeks in early September, the trucks are hauling manure out to the fields. With three loaders and ten trucks running, there is a truck going by every minute. I think they said this operation cost the feedlot about $12 per minute. I was able to make all the above moves without holding the trucks up over five minutes total in the entire two weeks. This was not done with "untrained" dogs, even if they don’t know "down, way to me, come by, walk on etc." What they do know is how to move stock and keep the animals under control.
As soon as things freeze up this winter we will bring the cowherd out of the Bush Country where they have spent the summer. We have one eighty-acre feed/water area that we use for two sets of cattle. This is how it works. In the winter the days are pretty short this far north. The feed truck starts running at daylight and I must have the cows out of this eighty acres before then. I will drive up to the gate and send the dogs. They gather the pasture in the dark. Even though most of the cattle are bedded down against the feedlot pens, the dogs never go through the fence and bother the cattle in the pens. When the temperature is minus 40 degrees, the cattle aren’t always too eager to get up and face into a blizzard. These cattle are taken to a field with a straw bed where they spend the day. There has not been one time that the dogs left a single cow.
After the feed truck comes in and fills the bunks, I go across the road to let the 600 head of yearling cattle in from their bed ground. Sometimes there are a few cattle at the gate, but most of them are on their straw bed and in the 20-acre brush patch that surrounds it. I send the dogs from the gate. They go a half-mile to the bed ground and gather all the cattle and bring them at a walk to me at the gate. I have to stand at the road to make sure they don’t miss the gate on the other side, and to check for sick animals. If I see an animal that needs to be treated, I will turn it down the road instead of letting it go through the gate. After the dogs bring the last animal through, we take the ones we have cut out up to the feedlot.
If you have never tried to make 600 head of cattle leave a cozy straw bed in the middle of an Alberta winter, believe me, it takes a dog or two that understands how to work cattle. When you consider that these same dogs also have to bring the cattle along gently so the sick ones are not unduly stressed, you really get to appreciate a good dog.
In the afternoon, these cattle are sent back to their bed ground for the night and the cows are brought back to clean up the feed bunks and have access to water until morning.
Maybe by now you will start to understand why I get defensive when someone says "yes, but. . . he would be a lot better dog if you had more CONTROL."
This is part of a letter we got last year from a friend of ours in Northern California. Bob is a veterinarian and has always been interested in stockdogs: ". . . .If you haven’t already heard, the highest priced dog in Red Bluff sold for just $200 less than the Champion Hereford bull. $4800 I believe. The sad truth is that I don’t believe there was a dog there that was as good as most of the dogs you had here. Certainly nowhere as good as the better ones."
I am not trying to convince anyone that there is anything wrong with trial-type training. All I’m saying is that there are people who want and need a working dog which, for one reason or another, the trial type dog is not suitable. Whether it is the dog or the man is immaterial. When I am working large numbers of cattle or sheep with a dog, I have a job to do. If I position myself where I can see the dog in order to tell him how to do his job, I can’t do mine. Further more, I have found that if I allow my dog to use his God given talents he knows better than I how to best move the stock.
Bud & Eunice Williams
PO Box 1497
Bowie, TX 76230-1497
940/872-4800 ~ Phone
Eunice@stockmanship.com
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